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厨师丹•巴伯尔通过严谨的调查和幽默的方式讲述了他寻求一条值得喜爱的“可持续性鱼”的过程，以及自从发现了一种在西班牙用非传统的方式养殖出来的极其美味的鱼之后，他就深深爱上了这条鱼。

Dan Barber: How I fell in love with a fish

丹•巴伯尔（DanBarber）：我是如何爱上一条鱼的

So, I’ve known a lot of fish in my life. I’ve loved only two. That first one, it was more like a passionate affair. It was a beautiful fish: flavorful, textured, meaty, a bestseller on the menu. What a fish. (Laughter) Even better, it was farm-raised to the supposed highest standards of sustainability. So you could feel good about selling it.

我一生中接触过很多鱼。只有两种是我的最爱。第一种，是源于激情。它是一条美丽的鱼，美味，纹理细腻，肉质丰富，是菜单上最受欢迎的鱼。多么美的鱼啊！（笑声）更好的是，它是依照最高标准养殖的，目的是保持它的可持续性的。而卖他的人也会感到心安理得。

I was in a relationship with this beauty for several months. One day, the head of the company called and asked if I’d speak at an event about the farm’s sustainability. “Absolutely,” I said. Here was a company trying to solve what’s become this unimaginable problem for us chefs: How do we keep fish on our menus?

我曾经沉醉于这美丽的关系中，时间大概延续了几个月。有一天，这个公司的高层打电话给我邀请我参加一个活动并就渔业的可持续性发展发表演说。我说，“当然可以”。这个公司正是要试图解决一个对于我们厨师来说正在变得不可想象的问题。“我们如何把鱼类留在菜单上？”

For the past 50 years, we’ve been fishing the seas like we clear-cut forests. It’s hard to overstate the destruction. Ninety percent of large fish, the ones we love — the tunas, the halibuts, the salmons, swordfish — they’ve collapsed. There’s almost nothing left. So, for better or for worse, aquaculture, fish farming, is going to be a part of our future. A lot of arguments against it: Fish farms pollute — most of them do anyway — and they’re inefficient. Take tuna, a major drawback. It’s got a feed conversion ratio of 15 to one. That means it takes fifteen pounds of wild fish to get you one pound of farm tuna. Not very sustainable. It doesn’t taste very good either.

在过去的50年中，我们从各个海洋中捕鱼就像是砍伐树木。绝不是夸大它的破坏性。90%的大型鱼类，那些我们喜爱的种类，金枪鱼，大比目鱼，三鲑鱼，剑鱼，他们都要灭绝了。几乎没有多少剩下了。所以，不管是好是坏，水产养殖业，养鱼业，都会成为我们未来的一部分。有很多针对这个行业的言论。其实它们大部分都是关于养鱼业会污染环境，而且效率很低，比如说金枪鱼。最大的弊病就是，养殖金枪鱼的饲料转换率是15比1。这个意思是说，每生产1磅金枪鱼肉要耗费15磅用其他野生鱼类做的饲料。这可不是很具有可持续发展性。而且也不好吃。

So here, finally, was a company trying to do it right. I wanted to support them. The day before the event, I called the head of P.R. for the company. Let’s call him Don.

最后，这个公司想做些正确事情。我也想支持他们。在那次活动的前一天，我联系了公司的公关部门头头。就让我们暂且称呼他为“唐阁下”。

Don, I said, “just to get the facts straight, you guys are famous for farming so far out to sea, you don’t pollute.”

我说：“唐阁下，据我说知，事实是这样的，你们在海洋捕鱼业十分出名，而且你们不会产生污染。”

That’s right, he said. “We’re so far out, the waste from our fish gets distributed, not concentrated.” And then he added, “We’re basically a world unto ourselves. That feed conversion ratio? 2.5 to one,” he said. “Best in the business.”

他回应：“你说的对。我们作业的地点很远，我们捕鱼所产生的污染物都被稀释掉了，不会集中残留在一个地方。”然后他补充到，“我们算得上是独树一帜。饲料转换率？2.5比1，”他说。“行业中最好的。”

2.5 to one, great. “2.5 what? What are you feeding?”

2.5比1，很好。“什么2.5比1？你们在喂什么？”

Sustainable proteins, he said.

他回答道：“可持续性蛋白质”。

Great, I said. Got off the phone. And that night, I was lying in bed, and I thought: What the hell is a sustainable protein? (Laughter)

我说：“很好”。然后挂了电话。结果那晚，我躺在床上想：可持续性蛋白质是什么鬼东西？（笑声）

So the next day, just before the event, I called Don. I said, “Don, what are some examples of sustainable proteins?”

所以第二天，就在那个活动之前，我打电话给唐阁下。我问道：’唐阁下，你有没有一些可持续性蛋白质的例子？”

He said he didn’t know. He would ask around. Well, I got on the phone with a few people in the company; no one could give me a straight answer until finally, I got on the phone with the head biologist. Let’s call him Don too. (Laughter)

他说他不知道。他会去问问周围的人。然后，我和这个公司里的一些人通了电话。但是没有人能给我一个明确的答案。直到最后，我通上了电话对方是生物学专家。让我也暂且叫他“唐阁下”。（笑声）

Don, I said, “what are some examples of sustainable proteins?”

我说：“唐阁下”“可以举例说明一下可持续性蛋白质吗？”

Well, he mentioned some algaes and some fish meals, and then he said chicken pellets. I said, “Chicken pellets?”

恩，他提到了一些藻类还有一些鱼食，然后他提到鸡丸。我问道：“鸡丸?”

He said, “Yeah, feathers, skin, bone meal, scraps, dried and processed into feed.”

他说，“是，羽毛，鸡皮，骨骼，排泄物，被晒干加工后添入饲料。”

I said, “What percentage of your feed is chicken?” Thinking, you know, two percent.

我说：“鸡在饲料中的比例是多少？”想一下，你知道，2%。

Well, it’s about 30 percent, he said.

结果他说：“恩，大概占30%，”

I said, “Don, what’s sustainable about feeding chicken to fish?” (Laughter)

我说，“唐阁下，用鸡喂鱼，这算什么可持续发展性？”（笑声）

There was a long pause on the line, and he said, “There’s just too much chicken in the world.” (Laughter)

电话的那边安静了很长时间，然后他对我说，“世界上就是有太多的鸡了。”（笑声）

I fell out of love with this fish. (Laughter) No, not because I’m some self-righteous, goody-two shoes foodie. I actually am. (Laughter) No, I actually fell out of love with this fish because, I swear to God, after that conversation, the fish tasted like chicken. (Laughter)

于是，我不再爱这个鱼了。（笑声）不，不是因为我是个自以为是，伪善的美食家。其实我是这样的人。（笑声）不，我不再爱这个鱼了，是因为，我向上帝发誓，在那次对话之后，那个鱼尝起来更像鸡。（笑声）

This second fish, it’s a different kind of love story. It’s the romantic kind, the kind where the more you get to know your fish, you love the fish. I first ate it at a restaurant in southern Spain. A journalist friend had been talking about this fish for a long time. She kind of set us up. (Laughter) It came to the table a bright, almost shimmering, white color. The chef had overcooked it. Like twice over. Amazingly, it was still delicious.

这第二条鱼，它则是另一种不同的爱情故事。是很浪漫的那种，那种你越多了解你的鱼，你就越爱它。我第一次在一个饭店中吃到这种鱼，位置在西班牙南部。很久以前一个记者朋友和我说过这里。她可以说是个媒人。（笑声）那条鱼在桌子上很亮，有着光晕，白色的那种。厨师烹饪它的时间过长了。好像是烹饪了两次。但是太神奇了，它还是很好吃。

Who can make a fish taste good after it’s been overcooked? I can’t, but this guy can. Let’s call him Miguel — actually his name is Miguel. (Laughter) And no, he didn’t cook the fish, and he’s not a chef, at least in the way that you and I understand it. He’s a biologist at Veta La Palma. It’s a fish farm in the southwestern corner of Spain. It’s at the tip of the Guadalquivir river.

谁可以做出这样好吃的鱼而且还是在烹饪时间过长的情况下？我不能，但是这个人可以。让我们叫他米格尔。其实他的名字就是米格尔。（笑声）但是，他没有烹调那条鱼，他也不是个厨师。至少在你我理解的方式之内他不是。他是一个生物学家在薇塔拉帕尔马。他是个位于西班牙西南角的养鱼场。他就在高达尔克维尔河的尖部。

Until the 1980s, the farm was in the hands of the Argentinians. They raised beef cattle on what was essentially wetlands. They did it by draining the land. They built this intricate series of canals, and they pushed water off the land and out into the river. Well, they couldn’t make it work, not economically. And ecologically, it was a disaster. It killed like 90 percent of the birds, which, for this place, is a lot of birds. And so in 1982, a Spanish company with an environmental conscience purchased the land.

直到上个世纪80年代，这个渔场是阿根廷人管辖的。他们在这里养牛那个时候这里基本上是湿地。当时他们把水抽走。然后建造一系列复杂的运河，他们接着把这里的水排入河流。但是，他们没有成功，我是指经济方面。而且对周围的环境造成了巨大的灾难。周围差不多90%的鸟类都消失了，而在这个地区那些是很多的鸟。到了1982年，一家具有环保意识的的西班牙公司购买了这块地。

What did they do? They reversed the flow of water. They literally flipped the switch. Instead of pushing water out, they used the channels to pull water back in. They flooded the canals. They created a 27,000-acre fish farm — bass, mullet, shrimp, eel — and in the process, Miguel and this company completely reversed the ecological destruction. The farm’s incredible. I mean, you’ve never seen anything like this. You stare out at a horizon that is a million miles away, and all you see are flooded canals and this thick, rich marshland.

他们做过什么？他们逆转了水流的方向。他们基本上是搬动卡关。代替排水，他们用这个水渠来把水引进来。他们用水填满了这个运河。然后建立了一个27000英亩的渔场–鲈鱼，梭鱼，虾，鳗鱼-在这个工程中，米格尔，还有这个公司，完全挽救了这次生态灾难。这个渔场太了不起了。我的意思是说，你从没见过类似的地方。我看着地平线它是那么的广阔，引入您视野的都是被注满水的河道和这个富饶的沼泽湿地

I was there not long ago with Miguel. He’s an amazing guy, like three parts Charles Darwin and one part Crocodile Dundee. (Laughter) Okay? There we are slogging through the wetlands, and I’m panting and sweating, got mud up to my knees, and Miguel’s calmly conducting a biology lecture. Here, he’s pointing out a rare Black-shouldered Kite. Now, he’s mentioning the mineral needs of phytoplankton. And here, here he sees a grouping pattern that reminds him of the Tanzanian Giraffe.

不久前，我和米格尔去过那儿。他是个了不起的人，¾是达尔文，¼是鳄鱼邓迪。（笑声）我们进入了湿地，而我是气喘吁吁汗流浃背，淤泥没到了我的膝盖，还有米格尔静静讲述的生物讲义。这儿，他指向一只罕见的黑肩鸢。这是，他提到可以满足矿物质需求的浮游植物。还有这，他看到一组图案让人联想起坦桑尼亚长颈鹿。

It turns out, Miguel spent the better part of his career in the Mikumi National Park in Africa. I asked him how he became such an expert on fish.

结果，米格尔曾经花了很长时间工作在非洲的米库米国家公园。我问他是怎么成为一位鱼类专家的。

He said, “Fish? I didn’t know anything about fish. I’m an expert in relationships.” And then he’s off, launching into more talk about rare birds and algaes and strange aquatic plants.

他说：“鱼？我不了解他们。我只是一个关系专家。”然后他发起了更多的对话都是有关于稀有鸟类和藻类还有特殊的水生植物。

And don’t get me wrong, that was really fascinating, you know, the biotic community unplugged, kind of thing. It’s great, but I was in love. And my head was swooning over that overcooked piece of delicious fish I had the night before. So I interrupted him. I said, “Miguel, what makes your fish taste so good?”

请不要误解我，那样的谈话真的是引人入胜，关于生物群落一类的事情。这都很好，但是我恋爱了。我脑中始终惦记着那条我前一晚品尝过被过度烹饪的美味的鱼。所以我中断了他。我说，“米格尔，什么使你的鱼那么好吃?”

He pointed at the algae.

他指向藻类。

I know, dude, the algae, the phytoplankton, the relationships: It’s amazing. But what are your fish eating? What’s the feed conversion ratio?

“我知道，兄弟，藻类，浮游植物，关系，这些都很神奇。但是你的鱼吃什么？饲料转换率是多少？？”

Well, he goes on to tell me it’s such a rich system that the fish are eating what they’d be eating in the wild. The plant biomass, the phytoplankton, the zooplankton, it’s what feeds the fish. The system is so healthy, it’s totally self-renewing. There is no feed. Ever heard of a farm that doesn’t feed its animals?

然后他继续告诉我这是一个很富饶的系统，这些鱼吃的就是它们在野外吃的东西。植物的生物质，浮游植物，浮游生物，都是鱼的饲料。这个系统非常健康，它完全是自我更新的。没有任何饲料。听说过一个不喂动物饲料的农场吗？

Later that day, I was driving around this property with Miguel, and I asked him, I said, “For a place that seems so natural, unlike like any farm I’d ever been at, how do you measure success?”

那天晚些时候，我和米格尔开着车在周围兜风，我问他，“这样一个看起来如此自然的地方，”不像其它任何一个我曾经见过的农场，“你如何衡量成功？”

At that moment, it was as if a film director called for a set change. And we rounded the corner and saw the most amazing sight: thousands and thousands of pink flamingos, a literal pink carpet for as far as you could see.

就在那时，仿佛有一位电影导演突然要求改变场景。我们转过弯看到最美的画面，成千上万的粉色火烈鸟，可以说是一张粉色的地毯。

That’s success, he said. “Look at their bellies, pink. They’re feasting.” Feasting? I was totally confused.

他说，“那就是成功。”“看他们的腹部，粉色的。他们正在享受盛宴。”盛宴？我完全迷惑了。

I said, “Miguel, aren’t they feasting on your fish?” (Laughter)

我说，“米格尔，他们的盛宴不正是你的鱼吗？”（笑声）

Yes, he said. (Laughter) “We lose 20 percent of our fish and fish eggs to birds. Well, last year, this property had 600,000 birds on it, more than 250 different species. It’s become, today, the largest and one of the most important private bird sanctuaries in all of Europe.”

“正是,”他说。（笑声）“鸟类会吃掉我们20%的鱼还有鱼卵。而且，去年，这个渔场有600000只鸟，超过250个不同的种群。今天，这里已经成为最大的而且是全欧洲最重要的私有鸟类自然保护区之一。

I said, “Miguel, isn’t a thriving bird population like the last thing you want on a fish farm?” (Laughter) He shook his head, no.

我说，“米格尔，这么多的鸟类数量不是一个渔场最不想要到的吗？”（笑声）不，他摇摇头。

He said, “We farm extensively, not intensively. This is an ecological network. The flamingos eat the shrimp. The shrimp eat the phytoplankton. So the pinker the belly, the better the system.”

他说,“我们是广义上的养殖，不是刻意的。这是一个生态网络。这些火烈鸟吃掉虾。虾吃浮游动物。所以他们的肚子上粉色越鲜艳，代表这个系统越好。”

Okay, so let’s review: a farm that doesn’t feed its animals, and a farm that measures its success on the health of its predators. A fish farm, but also a bird sanctuary. Oh, and by the way, those flamingos, they shouldn’t even be there in the first place. They brood in a town 150 miles away, where the soil conditions are better for building nests. Every morning, they fly 150 miles into the farm. And every evening, they fly 150 miles back. (Laughter) They do that because they’re able to follow the broken white line of highway A92. (Laughter) No kidding.

好的，让我们重新审视一下。一个农场不给它的动物喂食，而且它衡量自己的成功是根据它的天敌。一个渔场，同时也是个鸟类庇护所。而且，顺便说一句，那些火烈鸟，它们本不应该在那里。它们在城里繁殖而且是在150英里以外的，那里的土壤状况更加适合做巢。每天早上，它们飞行150英里来到这个渔场。到了晚上，他们在飞行150英里回家。（笑声)他们这样做是因为他们能顺着A92号高速公路的白线。（笑声）没开玩笑。

I was imagining a “March of the Penguins” thing, so I looked at Miguel. I said, “Miguel, do they fly 150 miles to the farm, and then do they fly 150 miles back at night? Do they do that for the children?”

我一直在脑海中想象类似【帝企鹅日记】的事，我看着米格尔。我说，“米格尔，它们飞行150英里来渔场，然后它们晚上再飞150英里回去吗？它们这么做是为了孩子吗？”

He looked at me like I had just quoted a Whitney Houston song. (Laughter) He said, “No; they do it because the food’s better.” (Laughter)

他看着我就像是我刚刚引用了惠特尼休斯顿的歌。（笑声）他说，“不，他们这么做因为这里的食物更好。”（笑声）

I didn’t mention the skin of my beloved fish, which was delicious — and I don’t like fish skin; I don’t like it seared, I don’t like it crispy. It’s that acrid, tar-like flavor. I almost never cook with it. Yet, when I tasted it at that restaurant in southern Spain, it tasted not at all like fish skin. It tasted sweet and clean, like you were taking a bite of the ocean. I mentioned that to Miguel, and he nodded. He said, “The skin acts like a sponge. It’s the last defense before anything enters the body. It evolved to soak up impurities.” And then he added, “But our water has no impurities.”

我还没有提到我最爱的鱼的皮吧，真的是很美味，而且我通常不喜欢鱼皮。我通常不喜欢烤的。我也不喜欢脆的。它有辛辣，像柏油那样的味道。我从不把它和鱼一起做。但是，当我在西班牙南部的那个餐馆尝到它的时候，尝起来不像是鱼皮。它尝起来微甜而且干净就像你尝了一口海洋自然的味道。我向米格尔提到我的想法，他点点头。他说，“鱼皮的作用就像是海绵。它是阻止任何物质进入到体内的最后的防线。它的作用是吸收杂质。”然后他继续说，“但是我们的水没有杂质.”

OK. A farm that doesn’t feed its fish, a farm that measures its success by the success of its predators. And then I realized when he says, “A farm that has no impurities,” he made a big understatement, because the water that flows through that farm comes in from the Guadalquivir River. It’s a river that carries with it all the things that rivers tend to carry these days: chemical contaminants, pesticide runoff. And when it works its way through the system and leaves, the water is cleaner than when it entered. The system is so healthy, it purifies the water. So, not just a farm that doesn’t feed its animals, not just a farm that measures its success by the health of its predators, but a farm that’s literally a water purification plant — and not just for those fish, but for you and me as well. Because when that water leaves, it dumps out into the Atlantic. A drop in the ocean, I know, but I’ll take it, and so should you, because this love story, however romantic, is also instructive. You might say it’s a recipe for the future of good food, whether we’re talking about bass or beef cattle.

好的。一个渔厂不喂它的鱼。一个渔场衡量它的成功是依照它天敌的成功。然后我意识到当他说，一个渔场没有杂质，他轻描淡写的说，因为在渔场中流过的水来自于高达尔克维尔河。那条河中含有现在所有的一条河里都有的东西，化学污染物，农药残留。然后当它进入这个系统之后离开时，水质变得比来时更干净。这个系统很卫生，它可以过滤这儿的水。所以，这个渔场不只是不喂动物，不只是衡量它的成功根据天敌的健康状况，但是是一个渔场基本上还是个水净化厂，而且不仅仅是为那些鱼，更是为了你和我。因为当水离开这里时，它会流入大西洋。我知道，这个作用是十分微薄的，但是我很重视它，而且你们应该也是，因为这个爱情故事，不但浪漫，而且有教育意义。你也许会说它是未来美食的食谱，不管是我们在说鲈鱼还是牛肉。

What we need now is a radically new conception of agriculture, one in which the food actually tastes good. (Laughter) (Applause) But for a lot people, that’s a bit too radical. We’re not realists, us foodies; we’re lovers. We love farmers’ markets, we love small family farms, we talk about local food, we eat organic. And when you suggest these are the things that will ensure the future of good food, someone, somewhere stands up and says, “Hey guy, I love pink flamingos, but how are you going to feed the world?” How are you going to feed the world?

我们现在需要的是一个全新的农业概念，一种真正的美食。（笑声）（掌声）但是对很多人来说，那太极端了。我们不是现实主义者，我们的美食家。我们是爱人。我们爱农产品市场。我们爱小型的家庭式农场。我们谈论区域性食品。我们吃有机食品。然后当你建议这些食品会保证未来的美食，某人在某地站起来说，”我说哥们，我爱粉色的火烈鸟，但是你怎么让这个世界填饱肚子？你怎么为这个世界填饱肚子？”

Can I be honest? I don’t love that question. No, not because we already produce enough calories to more than feed the world. One billion people will go hungry today. One billion — that’s more than ever before — because of gross inequalities in distribution, not tonnage. Now, I don’t love this question because it’s determined the logic of our food system for the last 50 years.

我可以坦诚点吗？我不喜欢你的问题。不，不只是因为我们已经生产了远远超出我们这个世界需要的卡路里。今天十亿人还是在饿着肚子。十亿–那比以前任何时候都多–根本原因在于总体上的分配不平衡，不是按吨位算的。我不喜欢这个问题的真正原因是因为他拟定了一个食物系统的逻辑，一个存在于过去的50年中的逻辑。

Feed grain to herbivores, pesticides to monocultures, chemicals to soil, chicken to fish, and all along agribusiness has simply asked, “If we’re feeding more people more cheaply, how terrible could that be?” That’s been the motivation, it’s been the justification: it’s been the business plan of American agriculture. We should call it what it is: a business in liquidation, a business that’s quickly eroding ecological capital that makes that very production possible. That’s not a business, and it isn’t agriculture.

把谷物喂给食草动物，把农药给单品种作物，化学品给土壤，把鸡给鱼，然后各类农业可以简单的问，“如果我们用更便宜的方法养活更多的人，有什么不对的呢？”那就是一个动机。它已经变得合乎情理了。它是一个商业计划属于美国农业的。我们应该指出它的真面目，一个在清算的生意，一个迅速侵蚀的生意生态资本使得这种生产成为可能。那不是一个生意，它也不是农业。

Our breadbasket is threatened today, not because of diminishing supply, but because of diminishing resources. Not by the latest combine and tractor invention, but by fertile land; not by pumps, but by fresh water; not by chainsaws, but by forests; and not by fishing boats and nets, but by fish in the sea.

今天我们的食品正在受到威胁，不是因为正在递减的供给，而是因为正在递减的资源，不是靠最新的嫁接技术与拖拉机的发明，而是肥沃的土壤，不是靠水泵，而是靠新鲜的水源，不是靠电锯，而是靠森林，不是靠渔船和渔网，而是靠海洋里的鱼。

Want to feed the world? Let’s start by asking: How are we going to feed ourselves? Or better: How can we create conditions that enable every community to feed itself? (Applause) To do that, don’t look at the agribusiness model for the future. It’s really old, and it’s tired. It’s high on capital, chemistry and machines, and it’s never produced anything really good to eat. Instead, let’s look to the ecological model. That’s the one that relies on two billion years of on-the-job experience.

想要喂饱这个世界？让我们开始问：我们怎么去喂养我们自己？或者更好的，我们怎么去建立一种环境它可以让每一个团体去养活自己？（掌声）要做到那样，不要指望未来沿用现在的农业模型。它已经过时了，而且很疲劳。因为它过度依赖资本，化学，和机械，而且它生产不出来真正的好食品。取而代之，让我们看看生态模式。它存在了20亿年同时具有实战经验。

Look to Miguel, farmers like Miguel. Farms that aren’t worlds unto themselves; farms that restore instead of deplete; farms that farm extensively instead of just intensively; farmers that are not just producers, but experts in relationships. Because they’re the ones that are experts in flavor, too. And if I’m going to be really honest, they’re a better chef than I’ll ever be. You know, I’m okay with that, because if that’s the future of good food, it’s going to be delicious.

看看米格尔，看看像米格尔这样的农民，不只属于他们自己的农场，它自我恢复，而不是消耗，广义的农场取代只是狭义的，农民不再只是生产者，而是关系专家，因为他们同时也是口味上的专家。而且如果要我说实话，他们是比我更好的厨师。你们知道，我完全认同这样的事，因为如果未来的优质食品是这样的，它们肯定会是非常美味的。

Thank you. (Applause)

谢谢你们。（掌声）